Y'all are a bunch of wankers!

Thai cave technical question

In a sealed space, which is more dangerous, the build up of carbon dioxide or oxygen depletion?

Divers have been taking them oxygen, but maybe they need CO2 scrubbers?
Permalink Katheryn Platon 
July 7th, 2018 2:16am
Water absorbs CO2, gets acidy. Soda water. We can handle high levels of CO2, it's O2 depletion that's the real problem. In the past the earth had MUCH higher CO2 levels.

The situation there is really fucked. The dozens of rescuers and their exertion used up all the oxygen in a small enclosed space.

Of course if the rescuers didn't go in the kids would still be fucked.

One rescuer is dead. And a monsoon has started. This won't be the end of the deaths if things continue as they have.

The situation is probably just fucked and there's no solution.

Elon Musk's idea of a 3 mile long nylon tube is dumb since they can't even get a much much smaller telephone wire pulled along the path.
Permalink Reality Check 
July 7th, 2018 2:22am
Not sure releasing letters from the kids was a good idea, they could easily all wind up dead.
Permalink Chris Escobar 
July 7th, 2018 11:32am
Journalists don't give a fuck about family feelings, they just need the clicks.
Permalink Kassidy Zakhar 
July 7th, 2018 11:38am
>We can handle high levels of CO2, it's O2 depletion that's the real problem.

Not exactly true:

https://principia-scientific.org/at-what-concentration-does-co2-becomes-toxic-to-humans/

With too much CO2 (1%-5%?), your body loses its ability to get rid of CO2 by exhaling.

So you need both oxygen, and low enough CO2, to survive.

My guess is they're going to attempt the diving rescue.  I don't see how it can be THAT bad?  Just tie them up, give them a breathing tube, and carry them?
Permalink Send private email FSK 
July 7th, 2018 3:12pm
Current levels are 0.4%.

Jurassic Dinosaur levels (see Van Der Meer) were 2.0%.

Carboniferous ero levels higher still.

Are you sure about your cite that 1% is toxic to (presumably) mammals?
Permalink Reality Check 
July 7th, 2018 5:05pm
"Just tie them up, give them a breathing tube, and carry them?"

Last week they had little rain plus a lot of pumping which allowed walking through a lot of it and only 7 hrs round trip to the kids.

Current round trip is 12 hrs.

So 6 hr scuba trip for a small kid who doesn't swim in a pitch black muddy system where even lights don't help and you have to make your way through feel, including through holes the same size as your waist after a deep dive.

This for kids with 15% O2 who are currently suffering hypoxia in which a normal human can not walk much less swim.

What do you think the actual chances are that more than 1 or 2 of the kids will emerge alive? Plus a half dozen dead rescuers.
Permalink Reality Check 
July 7th, 2018 5:08pm
Also the coach and two of the kids have already been determined to be so ill they can not make the trip and will be the "last" to make the scuba journey. We know they are going to die, we just don't say it.
Permalink Reality Check 
July 7th, 2018 5:10pm
The British guy who found them is one of the ten most experienced cave divers in the world.

He has said that he got to points multiple times that were far beyond the realm of safety and in which any competent and reasonable cave diver would turn back because the risk of death was simply far too high.

He spent hours feeling around in water that was so muddy nothing could be seen before he finally found the obscure tunnel the kids decided to explore. And that was after countless dead ends.

He has said the only reason he continued was because he was fairly sure the kids were somewhere in these caves and there was a small chance they might still be alive. He said the chances were not really worth it but he decided to violate all his training and push on.

Divers on this dive have said this is the worst dive they have ever seen.
Permalink Reality Check 
July 7th, 2018 5:18pm
(BTW, I'm PADI certified but I'm no expert.)

Non divers around the world are saying "What's the problem here? These kids who can't swim and have never been on a single dive should surely be able to make a 6 hour dive that is more difficult than any dive in the world and even extreme experts have died, after a day of training."
Permalink Reality Check 
July 7th, 2018 5:19pm
I'm not sure about 1%, but there is a cutoff.  I think that link said 4%.
Permalink FSK 
July 7th, 2018 5:30pm
Edd Sorenson, the safety officer for the National Speleological Society-Cave Diving Section says CO2 above 10% is the "dead" zone.

They've also talked about CO2 scrubbers, which are not commercial products, and likely would not fit through the two narrow openings that one must shimmy through.
Permalink Reality Check 
July 7th, 2018 6:06pm
> He has said the only reason he continued was because he was fairly sure the kids were somewhere in these caves and there was a small chance they might still be alive. He said the chances were not really worth it but he decided to violate all his training and push on


I’d love to see the rest of his comments

Amazing motivation
Permalink Stable Nick For A Decade! 
July 7th, 2018 7:07pm
>motivation

He's now a "elite diver" and is probably set for whatever courses or tours he organizes.
Permalink Send private email FSK 
July 7th, 2018 11:54pm
Huge monsoon hitting the area and torrential floods are filling the cave.

So the rescue operation has begun because it's only going to get worse from here on out. 12 international guys and 5 Thai seals are going to be in the pull-out.

None of the boys really know how to scuba yet, though they've had some lessons.

The best hope now is that maybe not everyone will die, if they are lucky.

Pretty bad situation.
Permalink Reality Check 
July 8th, 2018 5:39am
Butch Hendrick, a rescue diver and president and founder of Lifeguard Systems, said that in addition to "the problem of the narrow passageways ... and no visibility, cave diving is in itself one of the most dangerous things we can do."

He says in this situation there's a strong current and "trying to get them back out, we’re basically fighting a flood -- we’re working in an environment where the force is so great that (the rescue divers are) trying to figure out constantly how to make their bodies function through it, and continue to breathe. Trying to pull themselves back along the line, and be able to carry the boys with them, is an enormous effort."
Permalink Reality Check 
July 8th, 2018 5:41am
Pro tip:

When it's monsoon season where you live...

...do NOT go caving.

Duh!
Permalink Gary Oldman in disguise 
July 8th, 2018 5:55am
There's two British guys that went in initially.

Rick Stanton is a firefighter. He dives as a personal hobby and is considered the best cave diver in Europe.

John Volanthen is a professional computer engineer who dives and develops new diving technology, again as a personal hobby.

The work together always, are specialists in rebreathers and are experts in low-visibility cave dives within small passages.

They not only found the boys but are the ones that laid down all the ropes called "diving lines" that are being followed by all subsequent divers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/03/british-divers-at-heart-of-thai-cave-rescue-among-best-in-world

They quit the Norwegian body recovery dive a few years ago saying it was too dangerous. The article mentions that but doesn't include the follow up, that some other divers illegally entered that cave and recovered the bodies in an elaborate mission.
Permalink Reality Check 
July 8th, 2018 6:05am
4 boys out of the cave alive!

90 scuba divers currently involved in the rescue chain.
Permalink Reality Check 
July 8th, 2018 10:24am
Will be a 10-20 hr break until the next operation. The divers need to get rest and the several hundred oxygen tanks have to be refilled as they used them all.
Permalink Reality Check 
July 8th, 2018 10:26am
Most divers use air, pure oxygen is toxic deeper than 30 feet.
Permalink Paul Daniels 
July 8th, 2018 10:37am
>toxic deeper than 30 feet

30 metres:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity
Permalink WikiBot 
July 8th, 2018 10:59am

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