Give ne back my hat!

Bitcoin is fraud.

JPMorgan's global head of quantitative strategy has joined his boss, CEO Jamie Dimon, in the growing legion of anti-cryptocurrency crusaders.

In a client note on Wednesday, Marko Kolanovic said that cryptocurrencies as a whole have "some parallels to fraudulent pyramid schemes."

The comments come a day after Dimon called bitcoin a "fraud" that was "worse than tulip bulbs."

He even went as far as to say he'd fire any trader that transacted it for being stupid.
Permalink quaalude 
September 13th, 2017 4:25pm
After all that the Federal Reserve has done, I don't see how the dollar isn't a fraud.

Please explain.
Permalink Bill Ding 
September 13th, 2017 4:28pm
That is true but the Dollar is backed by the all properties in the US. When the US gov is desperate, it can confiscate everything. Bitcoin is backed by what?
Permalink quaalude 
September 13th, 2017 5:02pm
At least a nation and a military back the dollar and for now the entire world believes it holds value.

Bitcoin seems to be touted by the alt-right survivalist types quite a bit, which is odd considering how techie Bitcoin is and how fringe it is.

It's all entirely and purely a mass faith and confidence thing. Any paper or symbolic store of value can crumble if enough people disbelieve it. Metals too. If we found a mass of easily mined high density gold ore that was the size of Kansas, gold would instantly become as cheap as copper or aluminum.

I have no idea what to believe. I feel stupid for not buying a coupla bitcoin when they were cheap.
Permalink Bored Bystander 
September 13th, 2017 5:04pm
Bitcoin has intrinsic value because you can use it to pay off ransomware.
Permalink Yoda 
September 13th, 2017 5:24pm
>>Bitcoin is backed by what?

drug money?
Permalink Kenny the Robot 
September 13th, 2017 5:24pm
Something which Bitcoin groupies prefer not to notice: https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption
Permalink Yoda 
September 13th, 2017 5:25pm
Bitcoin is effectively a decentralised ponzi scheme.

This is evidenced by the fact that every person who owns bitcoin is a evangelist, spreading the news of how bitcoin will go up in value, so you ought to buy bitcoin (which makes the nominal value of their investment larger).

The reality of bitcoin is that it has almost no utility as a payment system, and people holding very large nominal amounts amounts can never cash out - it would take decades- as it would crash the value to do it any faster.  Yet if the bitcoin does stabilize, there will be a huge number of folks who will want to cash out.

Oh, and lastly, if bitcoin doesnt stabilize, eventually the bitcoins in circulation will eventully grow to and exceed a significant fraction of real currencies total circulation.    This would mean some earlier adopter neck beards would have wealth measured in the tens or hundreds of billions of $,  just for being the ones who were first to use bitcoin. I don't see banks or governments allowing that to happen (even assuming some genuine utility could be found for crypto currencies), when they could just invent their own variant crypto currency, and keep all the money for themselves, rather than making  bunch of randomness beards fabulously rich.

A crash is inevitable but I have no idea when it will happen.

I too regret not buying some a couple of years ago, but then it would have been a gamble,  and it would be a gamble now.
Permalink MobyDobie 
September 13th, 2017 5:35pm
"Something which Bitcoin groupies prefer not to notice"

? That aspect of Bitcoin is enormously well known and discussed. Ethereum is moving to proof of stake for this reason, but you can't really have POS until you have a large enough group of disparate holders. Bitcoin is kind of stuck on POW given the number of players who have a big investment in "mining".

A JPMorgan guy claiming Bitcoin is a fraud is hilarious.
Permalink Simulacrum 
September 13th, 2017 5:38pm
>After all that the Federal Reserve has done, I don't see how the dollar isn't a fraud.

Sure. People believe in the dollar. They believe in the dollar even though the Fed can print however many dollars they want. That's all it takes, because all money is is belief.

BTW, I sent my paper to the Fed in NY. Never heard back from them, but I would have liked to have worked for them. My paycheck would definitely have cleared.
Permalink Shylock 
September 13th, 2017 6:05pm
"That aspect of Bitcoin is enormously well known and discussed. Ethereum is moving to proof of stake for this reason"

Ethereum is a joke. How many times have they been hacked already?
Permalink Yoda 
September 13th, 2017 6:06pm
>Ethereum is a joke. How many times have they been hacked already?

LOL.
Permalink Simulacrum 
September 13th, 2017 6:06pm
> Sure. People believe in the dollar. They believe in the dollar even though the Fed can print however many dollars they want. That's all it takes, because all money is is belief.

The US government owns a lot of assets, and can seize more assets, either through taxes, or by military force to support the dollar ecosystem.

Quantative easing doesn't change that, it simply subdivides the dollar ecosystem into more units, making each preexisting unit into a smaller fraction of the total.

This is not comparable to bitcoin,  where it really is entirely faith about future appreciation in value that is holding it up at all.

And not to mention, dollars have a much greater utility as a medium of exchange than bitcoin.
Permalink MobyDobie 
September 13th, 2017 6:15pm
I think that people mainly use bitcoin in order to convert them into dollars, no? Any stores out there accept bitcoin in exchange for food, or gasoline?
Permalink Shylock 
September 13th, 2017 6:16pm
Jul. 14, 2017


Merchant acceptance of bitcoin, the leading cryptocurrency, is at an all-time low




Out of the leading 500 internet sellers, just three accept bitcoin, down from five last year. That decline is what the report calls a “striking discrepancy,” in light of bitcoin’s price surging to a peak over $3,000 earlier this year.

The currency saw a 55% increase in transaction volume this year, but it's probable that volume comes from trading rather than payments.

And even when merchants do see success with bitcoin acceptance, it’s still a very low share of overall volume — bitcoin sales are tripling, but comprised just 0.0002% of Overstock’s revenue last year.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/merchants-arent-accepting-bitcoin-2017-7

Overstock had 1.8 billion revenue.  0.0002% of that is $3600!


Almost certainly the most successful bitcoin-accepting retailer (except maybe ransom ware) had a total yearly bitcoin revenue of $3600!

Bitcoin is not used for retail... it's used for speculation
Permalink MobyDobie 
September 13th, 2017 6:33pm
The US Dollar is backed by the taxation power of the government.  Via the income tax, you have to pay tax whenever you work.  The government only accepts payment in US Dollars.

Bitcoin has a serious design flaw.  The "block reward" periodically halves.  Eventually, the block reward will be so small that there will be little mining incentive.  Transaction fees will have to make up for it, but transaction fees ruin the utility of Bitcoin.

Other alt-coins (like Dogecoin) don't have a decreasing block reward and avoid that defect.  With a fixed block reward, you have inflation forever, albeit at a decreasing rate.  A fixed block reward also means there's always an incentive to mine.
Permalink FSK 
September 13th, 2017 6:54pm
I have some bitcoin, for speculative gain but mostly to see how easy or hard it is to cash out.
Permalink , Cup 
September 13th, 2017 7:01pm
Make sure you have the bitcoin in a personal wallet, and not at an exchange or 3rd party service.

They periodically loot their customers.  The figured out they make more profits robbing their customers than by running an exchange.
Permalink FSK 
September 13th, 2017 7:09pm
> can never cash out - it would take decades- as it would crash the value to do it any faster.


How much gets cashed out daily now?
Permalink X 
September 13th, 2017 8:05pm
Yoda,

Ethereum lets you create code contracts. Some people created laughably weak contracts. That doesn't mean that Ethereum is a "joke".
Permalink Simulacrum 
September 13th, 2017 8:41pm
What does it mean? People can't write code that can standup to hackers. Well known
Permalink X 
September 13th, 2017 8:58pm
> How much gets cashed out daily now?

Way less than you might think.

Go to any bitcoin forum, and it doesn't take long to find people who say selling even relatively modest holdings needs to be done over several days to avoid crashing the price.

$3600

That's the entire annual bitcoin revenue of  the largest retailer accepting bitcoins.

There is no retail.  There is no utility for retail.  It's all speculation.
Permalink MobyDobie 
September 14th, 2017 3:51am
Bitcoin is like gold. There's no retail utility in gold, yet it's highly valuable and volatile. You buy gold to save, sell it to get money which you can use for retail purchase.

I just don't trust bitcoin because I don't get how it works or care about it.
Permalink Send private email Io 
September 15th, 2017 3:46am
Gold has utility.  Apart from industrial uses, it gets you pussy.
Permalink MobyDobie 
September 15th, 2017 5:57am
"What does it mean? People can't write code that can standup to hackers. Well known"

Specious nonsense. Ethereum's language is easily provable, an implementation was just profoundly sloppy (it used the reflector type pattern where it simplified the developer's code, but opened up the surface area dramatically).
Permalink Simulacrum 
September 15th, 2017 7:10am
So, anyone in the 'Bitcoin is fraud' camp have the balls to publicly short it?
Permalink Bill 
September 15th, 2017 11:30am
How would you do that? Is there a market set up for that?

But in any event, my balls are too small to ever short anything. That whole unlimited liability thing...
Permalink Shylock 
September 15th, 2017 12:38pm
There are markets for that.
I haven't spent any time researching it though.  I have no intention of shorting anything.
Permalink Bill 
September 15th, 2017 1:12pm

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