Anything else just isn't Enterprise enough.

I received a job offer.  Should I consider jumping ship?  Part 2

Here's the first part:

http://www.crazyontap.com/topic.php?TopicId=328174&Posts=42

I told the HR guy that it's not enough of an increase to consider switching.

He asked what it would take and I gave him my desired salary range.  He said, "While this is the salary range of the developers we have currently on staff, we would start you out at the lower number and get you there in a couple years.  Also we do have a yearly bonus which would put you approx 4k above the offer that we gave you."

I told him that I would need more than that to switch jobs.  He said he will follow up with the manager in case there is any wiggle room.

I also gave him the option of possibly contracting part time if we can agree on a rate which he is also asking the manager about. 

He then said it's been a pleasure dealing with me (or something like that) as if he's closing communication so I'm guessing they are not going to increase their offer but who knows.  I didn't even get into the early start time or the one week less vacation.

Just thought I'd update you guys and let you know what happened.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 9:42am
He told you thanks anyways.
Permalink Shylock 
July 11th, 2017 9:49am
Yes it sounds like it and I basically told him the same. :)

I just couldn't justify jumping for only a few thousand more especially with a longer work day, unusually early start time, and losing a week of vacation.  My gut told me "no way" but I crunched the numbers and put some deep thought into it anyway and couldn't justify the move.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 9:54am
Lessons Learned:

DO NOT go to any more interviews without requesting a phone screening first.  There was so much wasted time in not only driving back and forth to the interviews, dealing with phone calls, and putting thought into it.

DO NOT give out my salary history just because they ask.  They asked for it and used it against me in this situation.

Ask about items like the start time and vacation time at the initial interview (or maybe phone screening?).  There is no use in wasting time if that is going to be a deal breaker.

Perhaps it is best to give them my salary requirements at the phone screening as well?  It can save a lot of wasted time.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 9:59am
It was interesting how they tried to use the "bonus" and "jumps in salary the first two years" to get my salary in line with the other developers as a way to lure me in. He seemed to insinuate that my salary would jump at least 10k in two years but is that realistic?  It's not guaranteed for sure.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 10:01am
How many years of experience do you have?

I mean "We'll bring you in at a rate BELOW OUR OTHER DEVELOPERS and raise it up in a year or two" MIGHT be appropriate for a fresh-out.  But for a person with 5 years or more under their belt, that's simply insulting.

I mean, why are they hiring you if their current developers are getting it done?  I assume they want a fully contributing employee from day one.  If you've got at least 5 years experience, and they're hiring you, then surely you're worth what their current developers are making.

Besides which, in a year or two their current developers will be making 5% more, while you'll be making what they made a year or two back.  STILL not fair.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 11th, 2017 10:08am
This green tea I bought earlier this morning is tasty-licious.
Permalink This space for rent 
July 11th, 2017 10:15am
> How many years of experience do you have?

Almost two decades

> I mean, why are they hiring you if their current developers are getting it done?  I assume they want a fully contributing employee from day one.  If you've got at least 5 years experience, and they're hiring you, then surely you're worth what their current developers are making.

Good question.  The HR guy even mentioned something about looking for a 2nd new guy eventually and even said something to me at the interview to let him know if I know anyone who might be interested.

I work at a facility with 5x as many employees, and for quite awhile, was the only developer.  Why do they need 3 or 4 when they have a fraction of the employees?


> Besides which, in a year or two their current developers will be making 5% more, while you'll be making what they made a year or two back.  STILL not fair.

Right.  I'm guessing that one of both of the developers are connected or related to someone and they are looking for an outsider to take advantage of.  They saw my salary history and thought "there's a sucker".  Just a guess.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 10:26am
One of the developers looked like he was at least 10 years younger than me btw, the other guy a little older than me.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 10:29am
You did well.
Permalink Pestular Croaker 
July 11th, 2017 10:29am
Sounds like you dodged a bullet.  Low-man on the totem pole, brought in to save the ship the favored employees couldn't save.

Well done.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 11th, 2017 10:31am
BTW, if he calls you and tells a dramatic story of how he worked hard and got you the extra $10k, don't be happy or accept, because there are the other issues.

You say, "Oh, thanks but I am pursuing other opportunities at the moment. The start time and the loss of vacation were also problems. The last call ended before I could discuss the issue with you because the salary was a dealbreaker as well. As I said, I like the team and the work, but the low pay and benefits are not reasonably commensurate with my market value."
Permalink Pestular Croaker 
July 11th, 2017 10:33am
Thanks PC and everyone else who posted advice.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 10:33am
> It was interesting how they tried to use the "bonus" and "jumps in salary the first two years" to get my salary in line with the other developers as a way to lure me in. He seemed to insinuate that my salary would jump at least 10k in two years but is that realistic?  It's not guaranteed for sure.

I've had exactly this same thing done and I can tell you that not once did they follow through on any of it. It's just bullshit.

Also even if they do, so what? You start at a lower salary and get what you are worth NOW in four years? Well in four years you should be making a shit load more, not what you make now!
Permalink Pestular Croaker 
July 11th, 2017 10:34am
> Sounds like you dodged a bullet.  Low-man on the totem pole, brought in to save the ship the favored employees couldn't save.

Yep that's another mark against this job, going from the most seniority to the low man on the totem pole.

> Well done.

Thanks
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 10:34am
I would avoid making these same mistakes next time in your job search / negotiations.

There's no point in pursuing an opportunity with less seniority and a lower salary. You should know those things before you even interview.
Permalink NPR 
July 11th, 2017 10:38am
> "We'll bring you in at a rate BELOW OUR OTHER DEVELOPERS and raise it up in a year or two" MIGHT be appropriate for a fresh-out.  But for a person with 5 years or more under their belt, that's simply insulting.

Hubble's correct about this. But also there's another issue. Typically the problem a company has is that since the only way you get your market rate is by switching jobs, ALL the long timers at a place are paid below average. To hire someone new they HAVE to pay more. So they have the new guys making 20-50% more than the old timers. Then the old timers find out and get pissed off and it costs a lot of money.

Their tactic of wanting to bring in highly skilled new blood with years of experience and pay them less than the lazy complacent bums there who can't be bothered to jump ship isn't the normal way things are done.
Permalink Pestular Croaker 
July 11th, 2017 10:39am
> BTW, if he calls you and tells a dramatic story of how he worked hard and got you the extra $10k, don't be happy or accept, because there are the other issues.

I don't expect it but who knows.  It might be a part of their negotiating ploy to make it seem as if I am the one being unreasonable.

The shitty start time and less vacation time are both deal breakers.  They would have to meet those demands as well. 

> You say, "Oh, thanks but I am pursuing other opportunities at the moment. The start time and the loss of vacation were also problems. The last call ended before I could discuss the issue with you because the salary was a dealbreaker as well. As I said, I like the team and the work, but the low pay and benefits are not reasonably commensurate with my market value."

That is a good response.  Again, I don't expect another call but who knows. 

I threw out the part time contracting idea but I'm not sure I even want to go there.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 10:39am
> I've had exactly this same thing done and I can tell you that not once did they follow through on any of it. It's just bullshit.

Yes, definitely.  It's not guaranteed and there's nothing in writing so there is nothing I can do about it if they fail to deliver on their promises.

Perhaps they are only looking for a few big projects to be done and for someone to educate their current developers.  I go in there, take care of business, teach their current developers how to maintain the shit, and then get shit canned before the two year mark.  That was another concern.

> Also even if they do, so what? You start at a lower salary and get what you are worth NOW in four years? Well in four years you should be making a shit load more, not what you make now!

That is true, you're still losing money.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 10:43am
> I would avoid making these same mistakes next time in your job search / negotiations.

> There's no point in pursuing an opportunity with less seniority and a lower salary. You should know those things before you even interview.

Yep.  Next time I'll be requesting a phone screening (no in person initial interview).  If they don't want to discuss the salary range and vacation time at the screening, then I walk.  If they refuse to do a phone screening then I walk.

Fuck this going to "in person" interviews and dragging it over a month stuff.  This all could have been avoided with a good 30 minute phone screening.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 10:46am
> Hubble's correct about this. But also there's another issue. Typically the problem a company has is that since the only way you get your market rate is by switching jobs, ALL the long timers at a place are paid below average. To hire someone new they HAVE to pay more. So they have the new guys making 20-50% more than the old timers. Then the old timers find out and get pissed off and it costs a lot of money.

> Their tactic of wanting to bring in highly skilled new blood with years of experience and pay them less than the lazy complacent bums there who can't be bothered to jump ship isn't the normal way things are done.

Good points.

This is the place where the HR guy asked my salary history right in front of a peer that I would be working with (and I stupidly gave it to him), which was red flag #1.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 10:48am
Am I crazy or haven't we offered this kind of advice before?

The futility of dot's situation is either a sick joke or something to be truly pitied.
Permalink NPR 
July 11th, 2017 10:48am
What specific advice are you referring to?

I don't have much experience in negotiation, NPR.  Maybe you had a mentor to teach you this stuff?
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 10:54am
I've made the same mistakes as you have.
Permalink NPR 
July 11th, 2017 11:16am
It might be my imagination.
Permalink NPR 
July 11th, 2017 11:17am
Dot, NPR is saying he went through all this himself when younger and learned from it. As did I, and most of us here. We've offered you advice for years and you ignored it. So he's commenting on the futility of offering advice to the next generation.

However, it seems you are learning and are more streetwise now. But your education came from the school of hard knocks. Seeing these things unfold taught you how the world works and that the old folks weren't so wrong after all.

This happens every generation, so don't worry about it.
Permalink Pestular Croaker 
July 11th, 2017 11:58am
Most of the people who I interviewed with back then questioned why I was even interviewing, since they couldn't offer me as good of an opportunity as I already had. Due to youthful inexperience, as PC alludes to, I just couldn't see it at the time.

Eventually I did find a worse job at a lower salary in a shitty part of the country at a place that would accept me and I learned the hard way.
Permalink NPR 
July 11th, 2017 12:08pm
Ok, I understand.

I was taught to work hard but that's not enough.  Nobody (parents or school) taught me anything about negotiation.  I tend to learn things the hard way lol.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 12:09pm
One more question, should I bother writing thank you letters to these guys?  I was reading some websites where they suggest not only declining online but also in writing where you thank them for the consideration.  I guess the reasoning for that is to leave a good impression in case you run into any of them again.
Permalink .. 
July 11th, 2017 12:10pm
It can't hurt.
Permalink NPR 
July 11th, 2017 12:14pm
"Eventually I did find a worse job at a lower salary in a shitty part of the country at a place that would accept me and I learned the hard way."

It really is amazing what working hard and continually interviewing can do for a person.
Permalink Pestular Croaker 
July 11th, 2017 12:58pm
I write a thank you note after the interview IF I think I might want an offer.

I personally wouldn't send a thank you note either after declining the job, or being turned down.
Permalink Pestular Croaker 
July 11th, 2017 12:59pm
Well, yeah, there's no point in this case, is there?
Permalink NPR 
July 11th, 2017 2:04pm
I think it would just confuse the recipient.
Permalink Pestular Croaker 
July 11th, 2017 2:28pm

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